00:00:10.729 - 00:00:46.680

A, you too much. Too much. Oh, yeah. I, we are going to interview Desmond Tutu. I think we have a really good set of questions we're going to ask him and I think we're going to learn a lot. I think we've made

00:00:46.689 - 00:01:00.819

an enormous amount of progress in the past couple of days. I think we have really done a lot of work and I think it's paid off. We have a good art, a lot of questions and a lot of interesting things to ask him. And I'm really

00:01:00.830 - 00:01:38.830

excited about what we're going to hear. I'm really excited to go interview. We talked about him a lot in class and he's done a lot of interviews and read his book. So I'm excited to, oh one.

00:01:39.839 - 00:02:02.379

How about if we started with a prayer come holy spirit, fill the hearts of thy faithful people and kind in them, the fire of thy love, send forth thy spirit and they shall be made and thou shalt renew the face of the earth. Amen. Yeah, I

00:02:02.389 - 00:02:25.589

want to welcome you. I know. I mean, you, you're going to do the honors but let me just uh ready to start. Uh give you a very, very warm welcome. Uh Despite our weather, um as you know, it's our winter, it really is a joy to

00:02:25.600 - 00:02:39.839

see you again. And I thank you for all the things I know you need to do be doing to take time with this group. It's such a privilege. Uh Talia. Do you want to introduce the group and get things moving? Hi, I'm Talia. Thank you so

00:02:39.850 - 00:02:53.279

much for seeing us today. It's a pleasure and an honor to be here as you know, we are students from the Mount Madonna school values and world thought program. And we prepared a few questions for you today. But we'd also like to give you some time

00:02:53.289 - 00:03:13.800

if you have any opening thoughts you'd like to share with us. Let me not take too much time because I'm sure you are more interested in your, in, in, in being able to give your own questions. But I, I think uh it would be important to

00:03:13.809 - 00:03:43.529

say that um God has a lot of time for young people and when, when we look at the, the biblical record and, and uh subsequent human history, um it's quite amazing how, how frequently God has used young people uh to accomplish God's purposes. But he, it,

00:03:43.539 - 00:04:15.839

it's just to say that um most young people are fantastic in, in being so idealistic. Uh You are uh as we are just at the beginning part of, of this adventure that is life. And, uh you, you have and I hope you continue to have uh

00:04:15.850 - 00:04:42.640

the high ideas, the, the dreams that you have of, of the world. It isn't a world as God would want it to be. Obviously. Um, you look at our own country. Uh We've, we have done wonderfully well in, in throwing off the shackles of political, uh

00:04:43.500 - 00:05:18.929

oppression. And yes, we have done some things well as a free nation, but very much less. Well in, in, in, in, in, in a number of areas. Um our world is not as God would want it to be. Your country spends billions on, on arms. Uh

00:05:18.940 - 00:05:44.570

When a very, very small fraction of that would ensure that no child anywhere in the world would die because they didn't have clean water, they didn't have enough food. And you know, we were, we were held a great deal in our struggle against apartheid uh by,

00:05:44.750 - 00:06:11.260

by people like you students at, at, at colleges and universities who were part of the anti apartheid movement. There's still a lot of ugliness in God's world. Um And II, I am more. I can bet my bottom dollar as they say that almost all of you

00:06:11.709 - 00:06:43.890

believe that you can want to make a difference. And all I would want to, to say is for goodness sake. Keep on dreaming. Don't allow us oldies to infect you with our cynicism dream, dream. And you will find actually that you are dreaming God's dream, the

00:06:43.899 - 00:07:11.079

what God really wants, uh, our world really to be. Who wants to ask the first? Yes. Hi. My name is Daniel. And uh we have noticed that across the world, people are worrying and praying for Nelson Mandela. And it seems you have shared so much with

00:07:11.089 - 00:07:36.790

him in the anti apartheid movement and both politically, spiritually. And as a friend, could you talk about what he has meant to you personally? Over the years? Yes. People are actually very surprised to discover that when he was released in 1990 came to spend that first

00:07:36.799 - 00:08:03.149

night uh with us in bishop's court. That was the, that was only the second time I had met him because, well, the first time was I was still a student at college and uh we had a debating contest with a school of social work and Madiba

00:08:03.220 - 00:08:33.900

bless you. And Madiba was the uh the, the adjudicator. Uh And when I was archbishop here and he was on Robben Island, I asked for permission to go and visit them. Uh And, and uh almost uh predictably I was refused the permission. So our only communication

00:08:33.909 - 00:09:05.599

was by letter and he's, he's been an enormous influence on many of us uh our country. Most people uh saying uh people who uh were expecting that we were going to have the mother and father of a blood bath, racial blood path uh that um uh

00:09:05.609 - 00:09:33.059

there was just no way in which um you, you could have a, a peaceful transition from uh injustice to freedom. And I, I think, I mean, that many of us were beginning to think that that was inevitable. Um And, and then it, it turned out that

00:09:33.070 - 00:10:05.690

uh somebody upstairs was betting for us. Uh And we were given this extraordinary person. Um you know, people often say 27 years, what a waste. And they are quite shocked when I say the 27 years, those years were absolutely crucial years. They were necessary because he

00:10:05.700 - 00:10:40.900

went into prison, an angry young man and his experiences in prison as you, as you well know, suffering can make a person either bitter or it can make someone to be magnanimous to be. We were fortunate that uh his suffering uh had this very solitary outcome

00:10:44.150 - 00:11:15.169

in the 27 years. He learned to be understanding of the other's point of view. Uh He could put himself in the shoes of his afrikaner um jailers and understand uh there are anxieties. Um I mean, they had been told that uh the anti apartheid movement was,

00:11:15.200 - 00:11:52.690

was really communist. Uh It was atheistic and so forth. Uh And you could understand why they were scared and, and, and so from being angry, he began to be sedate and magnanimous. And we were very fortunate that he was then to take charge of the ship.

00:11:53.440 - 00:12:24.130

Uh In that transition, we ought not to uh undervalue the, the role of Mr De Klerk, I mean, uh had he been uh an intransigent person? It would have been much more difficult to have had this. But yeah, I that was a major influence on, on,

00:12:24.140 - 00:12:50.150

on, on me that um he could come out preaching forgiveness and reconciliation at a time when his own movement, I mean, most in his own movement, young people um were wanting to fight uh to the bitter end. And the last thing they would have imagined was

00:12:50.159 - 00:13:22.590

talking about forgiveness and, and not, uh, retribution. Yeah, that I hope it covers some other questions because I, I've gone on to a little too long, you know. Yes. Hi. My name is Ruby and I am curious to know what you felt at the moment when

00:13:22.599 - 00:13:55.960

you took Mandela's hand and stepped out onto the balcony to introduce him as the next president of South Africa. Oh, I mean, there are things that are indescribable. Can you describe your first kiss? That? No, no. But I, I think actually, I mean that there are,

00:13:55.969 - 00:14:26.510

there are things, there are experiences. I mean, when you become a father for the first time, it is. Yeah. I mean, you really are at a loss for words to describe how you feel when you hold that little life in your hands. And I'm the father,

00:14:27.479 - 00:14:50.880

you know of this bundle of life. Um, I'll tell you actually what I, what I said quietly to God, I said to God after I introduced my Madiba to the, the crowds in South Africa and in the world, I said, God, if I die now, I

00:14:50.900 - 00:15:21.570

really don't mind. I would, I wouldn't mind. I mean, it, it, it was just an incredible moment, almost really indescribable. Um You know, because it, it was dream like, you know, here we are standing in line to go and vote in South Africa to pinch in.

00:15:21.580 - 00:15:53.450

No man, it can't be real. And it was so, yeah. Uh I, I said to God, I can't think of anything more incredibly wonderful than to have been given this honor. And basically, I was saying to God, I know you can't top this. And then God

00:15:53.460 - 00:16:27.489

said, OK, try me. Uh and, and there the that David has got the picture. Thank you David. But God, God in fact, had uh still something I mean to be asked to chair the Truth and Reconciliation Commission uh are just fantastic. Yes, I want to try

00:16:27.500 - 00:16:52.619

and make out that I'm, I'm, I'm quite modest, you know, and I, I won't. Uh Hi, my name is Lauren. Um I was wondering how difficult it was to convince people to agree with the establishment of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission after the end of apartheid.

00:16:55.500 - 00:17:44.060

Yes, they, I think almost everywhere um victims are in incredibly magnanimous. You know, the people who get clubbed and you think um uh going to be Josh eager for retribution and revenge. It's quite, I mean, it is, it is amazing just how frequently people, uh, are

00:17:44.069 - 00:18:13.199

willing to forgive in, in our culture. There is something called wound to have you, you, you, you, you have come across that. Yeah. All right. Um, which inclines people towards, uh, being forgiving, accepting that, uh, you are keen to restore fellowship relationship. So, your, your juris

00:18:13.209 - 00:18:44.209

prudence is sort of, uh, uh, restorative rather than uh retributive. But when you get to think that, oh it's, it's a peculiarity of Africans. One of the most wonderful things that happened here is, have you heard of Amy Beal? You, you, you would have what you,

00:18:44.369 - 00:19:08.089

you probably, you'll go and maybe visit her foundation here. Amy Beal was a uh uh she was a Fulbright scholar and was working at the University of the Western Cape A she, she was a White American from California. Uh One day, a friend of hers, a

00:19:08.099 - 00:19:40.839

black friend said could, well, I think she, whatever she, she decided to give her a lift home. And obviously, I mean, there was a segregation and the lift home was to a black township. And yes, they drive to. And as it happens, there's a large crowd

00:19:40.849 - 00:20:11.239

of young black kids uh who there was the slogan of one of the parties. Um White white settler, 11 bullet, white one settler. Uh and, and they were shouting this slogan when they saw her and they changed her. She, I don't know why. Uh, but she

00:20:11.250 - 00:20:50.800

got out of the car and tried to run. They overtook her and they killed a quiet gruesomely. Um, two of the, that crowd were certainly, they were sentenced to very long terms in prison. They came to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, uh, um, to apply for

00:20:50.810 - 00:21:28.699

amnesty. And Amy Peal's parents came all the way from California to hear they, they could have, they could have um opposed the granting of uh of amnesty, which we should an opposition which should have been taken very seriously by the panel. But you know, Amy Peel's

00:21:28.709 - 00:22:01.589

father has since died, stood up and to where we were sitting and, and, and said, uh we support the granting of amnesty to these young people and when they were asked why he said they know that this is what Amy is expecting us to do. Now.

00:22:01.599 - 00:22:40.170

That's a fantastic act in itself. Amazing, but that's not where it ended. Mhm Because they then founded the Amy Be Foundation which is working um especially from trying to rescue young blacks uh from going astray. And I think at least one of the two guys was

00:22:40.180 - 00:23:04.910

employed by the Amy Be Foundation. Uh You may still be working there. I don't know. So I was just trying to say, don't think, I mean that it is that a tray of black people. Uh I mean, one of the, one of the first of, of

00:23:04.920 - 00:23:31.760

of the people who came before the commission, uh to tell their story, uh, was a white woman who, who we have seen a lot of her friends killed at the Christmas party, uh by one of the, um, groups here. Uh, and she, she, she was quite

00:23:31.770 - 00:24:04.160

uh disabled. Um, and it's almost like you think. No, uh I am making up these, this is such a lovely story. It's made up but she, there, she was sitting there maimed uh still with some bullets in her, in her, in her body and, and she

00:24:04.170 - 00:24:33.660

said, um, she'd like to meet the person. I think they threw hand grenades. Uh I'd like to meet the person who threw this hand grenade that uh uh injured me so badly. Um I think, I mean, yes, I, I want to give him what for? And

00:24:33.670 - 00:25:13.869

she said I'd like to ask him to forgive me. I mean, did we hear a right? Uh Yes. And I hope I'm in that. Yeah, I, I, I would forgive him. I mean, he would fantastic. I mean, people are, are quite incredible really. It's been, um,

00:25:14.729 - 00:25:46.229

it's been a fantastic experience, uh sitting there and, uh, I mean that we would expect that people would be consumed by anger and bitterness, but most of our experience, 23 years of the commission were anything. But, I mean, they were, they were, they were really very

00:25:46.530 - 00:26:16.000

iii I said on one of occasions, uh we ought to take off our shoes. Uh, because this is holy ground. Uh, when, when people who by rights should have been consumed by bitterness and anger, they, it was, it was quite, it was quite an extraordinary one

00:26:16.010 - 00:26:40.130

of the shames, the great shame of our country is, is that some of the people who needed it most, um, a lot of the white people, I mean, were very, very dismissive of the commission and didn't take the advantage. Um And so they are suffering still

00:26:40.140 - 00:26:59.719

from the trauma of having part of a system that did what it did to fellow human beings. Yeah. OK. Don't you, don't you think I've sung for my supper? I know that my name is Jenny. Um And it seems to me that Jesus is a historical

00:26:59.729 - 00:27:24.589

figure was a revolutionary force. What do you think the life and teachings of Jesus would say about what it is, what is needed right now to conserve the intention and essence of South Africa's anti apartheid movement. Yes, you were wonderful professor. Yes. Um We have not

00:27:24.599 - 00:28:02.640

yet grasped just how revolutionary our faith teachings. Uh you know, uh because far too frequently, I mean, we, it is, we, we are speaking often in, in situations which are relatively, ok, relatively. Ok. But I mean, I don't know how you would understand uh in a

00:28:02.650 - 00:28:37.339

situation where you are treated like rubbish where you can have as they had in this country. Uh notices that say said, uh, natives ourselves, natives and dogs not allowed. Now, you don't have to be too subtle to know that they, they are saying, uh, natives, us

00:28:37.420 - 00:29:08.040

and dogs uh, are on the same level. Um, and, and well, I actually, they treated their dogs much better than they treated us. And then you, you, you introduce to those people an incredible teaching, you know, one that says, do you know what you are created

00:29:08.050 - 00:29:33.739

in the image of God? You and you and you now, what does that mean? We actually don't quite grasp the full significance of this, which is that you are a God carrier to know you are a good carrier. When I meet you, I shouldn't just shake

00:29:33.750 - 00:30:07.530

your hand as we do, but we ought to be doing what Buddhists and, and, and uh Hindus uh people, especially in the east to which, which is really bowing very profoundly. The God in me greets the God in you that, that uh that to wrong one

00:30:07.540 - 00:30:37.219

such is not just a wrong, which it would be. Do you know what if we took our theology seriously? It is to say it is bless. You are treating that other person as you are doing really spit in the face of God. Uh We, we don't

00:30:37.229 - 00:31:09.400

take it seriously, you know, um as you can see from how we, we still treat one another that I mean, I, I've, I've Isaac if you, if you saw me in the red light district of your, of one of your towns, would you have said? No,

00:31:09.410 - 00:31:43.349

we are sure he's there to carry out, uh, evangelical work. Nobody would. Very few should let, just say very few would imagine that I was, I was, I was, I was there, uh, for anything but XX, XX. Yes. Uh, but. Mhm. II, I don't know. Maybe

00:31:43.359 - 00:32:20.079

we've, um, quarantined and, and, and cleansed the, the, the gospels quite a bit because some of our, of our Lord's closest friends were prostitutes, you know, and one of them is one of uh I, I have, I have three patron saints. I needed three to keep

00:32:20.089 - 00:32:48.989

me out of mischief. Uh uh One of them is, is, is Mary Magdalene. And now it's not quite clear whether she was, but I myself believe that she was, is the, it's the, it's the Mary Magdalene who was a prostitute who became the queen of penitence

00:32:50.170 - 00:33:27.729

and who was the apostle to the apostles. That's the first person our Lord met Mary Magdalene, a woman, a former prostitute and in, in, in a society that was so, so, so against women, he sent her to the main apostles. She's the very first person to

00:33:27.739 - 00:34:01.920

have spoken to our Lord after his resurrection. A woman. Now that was quite a deliberate act um in a sexy set up. Um and to tell, say to her, go and tell it's a fantastic thing to go and tell my brothers, now my brothers are, they

00:34:01.930 - 00:34:33.370

the guys, one of whom uh betrayed him, another denied him three times and all of them abandoned him except for the women and maybe one other men, uh disciple. Um Now you have to tell me what were, what was I answering? What were they answering? You,

00:34:33.379 - 00:35:00.050

you have to discover, I mean, um what do you think the life and teachings of Jesus would say about what is needed right now to conserve the intention and essence of South Africa's anti. It's really just to say these are human beings created in the image

00:35:00.060 - 00:35:22.020

of God and you should leave it at that. That ought to be enough to shake up anybody that, hey, do you know what you are doing this not to, it's actually God that you are speaking at none of us. Very, very few of us actually work

00:35:22.030 - 00:35:55.550

on that basis. God. God wears an incredible disguise. But if, if we were for real, this world would be what God was. You know, the, that, that lovely image. God wanted us to be able to live as if in a garden. You know where there, there

00:35:55.560 - 00:36:24.080

was, there was no bloodshed. You remember the everyone in the garden was a vegetarian. Uh They didn't kill to eat well. Now we, we can justify maybe we can. But basically it was that God wanted us to know that we depended on one another. That is

00:36:24.090 - 00:36:53.699

why God could say about Adam before eve that it is not good for this guy to be alone. Maybe Christianity is too. There you go for us for our comfort. Hi, my name is Prey. Um In a recent interview, Alan asked, how is it possible that

00:36:53.709 - 00:37:12.530

we as a society talk with such convictions about the right to own instruments of murder and death and not have the same enthusiasm for the right of people to have shelter or the right of the vulnerable to be taken care of. He went on to say

00:37:12.570 - 00:37:31.989

we have the freedom to redefine power as a force based on servant hood and not just domination. Ordinary people. Churches too have a role to force politicians to respond. What do you think is the role of the church in helping to redefine how we as a

00:37:32.000 - 00:37:56.229

society use power. He's very smart. It's very, very easy, easy. I mean, he, he was the, he was the most eloquent of us. I mean, he, he could, he, he could mesmerize a crowd and in, in minutes uh they would be eating out of his hand.

00:37:56.370 - 00:38:25.360

He really, I mean, he's an incredible orator, isn't he David? I mean, yes, I mean, there, there is no one really, no one. I, I mean, I try not to be jealous, you know, but yes, I mean, the, the, the form of the question already contains

00:38:25.370 - 00:38:59.159

its answer, you know, because he's saying what's, what's happened to our standards. I mean, why are you able to allow, what is it? NP something, the national, something, something that, uh, that, that is so passionate about owning guns, Nranra? I mean, can you, can you believe

00:38:59.169 - 00:39:43.669

it after, after what's happened at that school? What's happened in Colorado? Uh, I mean, what right is absolute, maybe, yes, the right to life. But even that, uh, what do you do when a pregnant mother knows that if she carries the baby to term, she's as

00:39:43.679 - 00:40:22.219

short as anything we do die. I'm not. Yes, I, I'm just saying, you, you, we have not always been true to the principles and the founding principles of our faith. Um I mean, Jesus in, in tries, he tried in so many ways when he, when he,

00:40:22.229 - 00:40:48.120

he healed on the Sabbath and, and they castigated him for doing. So you say, trying to say, hey, these laws are made to be life enhancing. They are made for the sake of human beings. They're not made to be glorified and, and, and held up there

00:40:48.419 - 00:41:17.239

uh as it were on their own so that they are a kind of idol. And Alan has a, has a very, very sharp intellect and, and, and, and as I've just said, I mean, he, he's able to go to the heart of the matter uh in,

00:41:17.250 - 00:41:51.290

in next no time. Yes. If, if, if we in the church, we're able to have shown that we are life affirming that for us, the most important thing is a human person and that anything that, it, it, it's a fantastic question to us. Yeah, I mean,

00:41:51.500 - 00:42:23.770

how do we become servant leaders? And in many ways, I mean, you're the new Pope Francis. Uh has, I mean, he showed, I mean, when he used public transport and Argentina uh and uh lived not in the palace and now here, I mean, in, in Rome,

00:42:23.780 - 00:42:56.659

he is causing some consternation. Uh because again, they, he goes to eat with as to everybody and they, and they, and they've not been Yeah, yes, we would turn the world upside down. But we then I think show that we, we value the things that should

00:42:56.669 - 00:43:29.879

be valued um that we would say what does this do to people? What, what consequence does this have on Children? Having more access to good education to good health? Uh does it if it's not, then it is something that we must uh throw by overboard. But

00:43:29.889 - 00:44:19.209

we, we don't always do that. Uh Yeah, it, it, it can be tough. Uh because when, when we are human beings like things that show I am me, you know. Uh and we find it very difficult to live into uh the, the image of the boss

00:44:19.919 - 00:44:57.889

going down on his knees to wash feet. How will you know that I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm the chief here. If I, if I don't come in a shiny automobile and with a, with a huge retinue. Yes. Well, sure over to you. Will you be able

00:44:59.600 - 00:45:39.709

or will you try, let us see, will you try to make this world just a little bit more like what God would want it to be? Ha ha. God bless you. Yeah. Ok. Thank you. Oh, he's just so sweet and his laugh is so

00:45:39.719 - 00:45:58.030

contagious and it's really awesome to see how much he can impact you just by looking at you and saying something incredibly simple can mean so much. And I know I'll definitely remember it for a very long time. I want you here in about five years time

00:45:58.389 - 00:47:00.189

that you really change the world. A pre that