00:00:02.059 - 00:00:24.450

He's one of the most famous priests on the planet. I've always believed in God. He is a man of peace who was striving for change in South Africa by peaceful means. Yet he doesn't completely renounce violence. I am not a pacifist. He was an outspoken opponent

00:00:24.459 - 00:00:49.700

of injustice in his country. If apartheid is not dismantled, then we are going to have a blood bath. But now he feels let down by the democratic regime in South Africa. We seem to have lost the plot and injustice in other countries still appalls him. You

00:00:49.709 - 00:01:16.819

have roads that only Israeli Jews are allowed to travel on, but he's never lost his sense of humor. Two years ago, he said he was retiring from public life. Don't call me, I'll call you. He told the world's media, but we did call him and my

00:01:16.829 - 00:01:57.069

guest today on the first interview is Archbishop Desmond Tutu. When was the first time Desmond? When you realized that you believed in God. I've always believed in God. No, I mean, I think that it was something you took in with your mother's milk kind of

00:01:57.080 - 00:02:20.690

thing. I, I was born into a family that um was it was a family of practicing Christians? Was there ever a moment when you worried for a second that you had lost your beliefs? No, uh what I've always experienced or I experienced on, on, on quite

00:02:20.699 - 00:02:43.889

a number of occasions, especially during the time of the struggle was uh anger at God. I mean, I really got very angry with God. Uh and uh would rail at God and say what for goodness sake. How can you allow such and such to happen? South

00:02:43.899 - 00:03:08.190

Africa, a country founded by white settlers has had racism embedded in its history for centuries. And it is this which inspired Desmond's spirit to fight injustice from his earliest childhood, raised on the outskirts of Johannesburg, Africa's richest city, the poor suburb of Sofia town where his

00:03:08.199 - 00:03:30.110

family had lived was demolished by the apartheid regime as a deliberate policy of ethnic cleansing by then, Desmond had become a teacher. But in protest at South Africa's racial education policies, he decided to train for the priesthood. His mentor was an an priest called Father Trevor

00:03:30.119 - 00:03:55.000

Huddleston. I remember when I was about nine, when uh my mother was working as a domestic worker at a institute for black uh blind people. Uh and recalled, I didn't know him then, but I recall this white priest in a in a long flowing castle doffing

00:03:55.009 - 00:04:15.889

his head to my mother. And I mean, that struck me as being quite odd, a white man lifting his head to my mother, a black woman and a black woman, not an ed particularly educated, she's a domestic worker. But even more incredibly was the fact that

00:04:16.769 - 00:04:40.459

I went into hospital and that, I mean, I had TB and I was in hospital for 20 months and almost all of that time, Trevor Harrison visited me regularly and you don't know just what it did for one's self esteem. Here is an important white man

00:04:40.470 - 00:05:05.480

coming to visit me in a, a township urchin. Uh And yeah, I mean, his influence on me and on others uh was quite phenomenal. Our policy is one which is called by an Afrikaans word apartheid. And I'm afraid that has been misunderstood so often it could

00:05:05.489 - 00:05:26.450

just as easily and perhaps much better be described as a policy of good neighborliness, accepting that there are differences between people and why these differences exist and you have to acknowledge them at the same time, you can live together, aid one another, but that it can

00:05:26.459 - 00:05:55.559

best be done when you act as good neighbors. Always do even if this means making one group, second class citizens. No, I don't think that in the far future it means making would have enjoyed that. I mean, sure, what are your thoughts today about? He was

00:05:55.570 - 00:06:21.700

a very, very clever man. He thought, I mean that um you could deal with things here by being, by being smart. Uh But he was clear that black people in South Africa had no position higher than certain forms of labor. He said, so he said quite,

00:06:21.980 - 00:06:52.959

quite clearly in parliament. He said, why we must introduce Bantu education on the 21st of March 1960 when Desmond was 28 South Africa exploded in violence. Police shot down unarmed protesters in what became known as the Sharpeville massacre. I was in my final year at uh

00:06:53.420 - 00:07:15.200

theological College. I was, I was already going to be ordained. At the end of that year, 69 people were killed and most of them were shot in the back as they were running away, protesting against the pass laws. I remember it as a moment when you

00:07:15.209 - 00:07:42.200

realized that black life was cheap. It was an awful time. Uh I mean, where you were aware that uh for most white South Africans, we were human but, you know, kind of uh they are human but, you know, uh they're not very clean, are they? I

00:07:42.230 - 00:08:04.170

mean, um they, they're not very clever, are they? Uh they, oh, and, and, and they, they steal, don't they? I mean, you know, you can't, you can't leave anything uh that, that you think is valuable when they are around, you'll use the main entrance. If you're

00:08:04.179 - 00:08:23.100

white, you went into a post office, you, you had to use separate entrances. We've just come back from England with our, our youngest child. We had four Children. The youngest was born in London. And, and, and she saw some Children playing in a, on swings and

00:08:23.109 - 00:08:41.210

so on. And she said, uh I want to go and play and, and where to say no, so that you can't. And she said, but there are other Children playing and, and it was incredibly difficult. I mean, it really, it really just made you feel, I

00:08:41.219 - 00:09:00.510

wish the ground could open and swallow me up. How do I tell my child that? Yes, you are a child but you're not a child like those other Children who are on the swings on the roundabout. We lived in ghettos. Black Children were also getting uh

00:09:00.520 - 00:09:21.190

government uh school feeding when the vote took over. He stopped it because he said, and, and this was his reasoning. Uh, we, we can't feed all of these Children. So we are not going to feed some. I mean, it's a bizarre thing. I mean, to say,

00:09:21.200 - 00:09:45.440

no, we're not going to try and, and cure uh, any people who have TB because we can't cure all of them. So we will cure none. I mean, that is bizarre in the extreme. And then there was beginning to be some forms of meaningful protest. There

00:09:45.450 - 00:10:04.659

are many people who feel that it is useless and full futile for us to continue talking peace and non-violence against the government whose reply is only savage attacks on an unarmed and defenseless people. And I think the time has come for us to consider in the

00:10:04.669 - 00:10:25.549

light of our experiences in this stay at home, whether the methods which we have applied so far are adequate. Nelson Mandela's A NC did adopt violence as a strategy after Sharpeville. But he and the A NC leadership were soon to be arrested, tried and sentenced to

00:10:25.559 - 00:10:49.030

life in prison. Protest in South Africa was harshly dealt with and hundreds of political prisoners were sent to Robben Island where Mandela and the others were breaking rocks in the quarry. Then in 1976 the country exploded again. This time, it was Children who were shot down

00:10:54.590 - 00:11:21.869

1976. Uh June the 16th South Africa never became the same again. After that. Our young people who had nothing, I mean, except perhaps students took on the apartheid system, they said we've had enough and we will not buckle under the system. 1976 is a very, very

00:11:21.880 - 00:11:49.210

important date um in our struggle uh calendar. In fact, you wrote to John Vorster, the then Prime Minister Prime Minister just six weeks before Soweto and you were in, in a way predicting what time eventually to have. I don't know that it took a great deal

00:11:49.219 - 00:12:10.010

of uh presence. I mean, I lived in, in, in the black community and I, I was aware of the levels of frustration that our people were experiencing. The fact of writing a letter came at a time when I was in retreat. And for me, it seemed

00:12:10.020 - 00:12:30.840

like, you know, one could say I had a kind of God pressure, uh, and, and, and the letter that I wrote wrote itself but the, the Prime Minister and, and his party, uh, dismissed my letter contemptuously. In fact, they suggested that, uh, I had been put

00:12:30.849 - 00:12:58.909

up to it. It wasn't, it wasn't my own, uh, composition that the white, um, opposition party, uh, had really had a hand in, in its production. I mean, there you were about 456 weeks before I, I said, uh, I'm, I'm very fearful that un unless they,

00:12:59.820 - 00:13:26.820

they take steps to show that they hear our critic, um, that we were going to have an explosion. Were you ever tempted for a moment to go along with the conclusion that people like Nelson Mandela came to that there had to be, uh some, some violence

00:13:26.830 - 00:13:50.349

of some kind for a very, very long time. I did hope that the world would, would hear our plea and that is why we urge the world to apply sanctions and said to them, this is really the last nonviolent way of seeking to change the system

00:13:50.359 - 00:14:10.700

in, in South Africa. And, and of course, as you know, I mean, Mrs Thatcher, she then was Ronald Reagan in America were dead set against sanctions. I have, will have nothing to do with any organization that practices violence. I've never seen anyone from the A NC

00:14:10.710 - 00:14:32.020

or the PLO or the IRA and would not do so. But the A NC says that they will target British came, this shows what a typical terrorist organization it is. And it was very, very largely because of the anti apartheid movement in America. It was particularly

00:14:32.030 - 00:14:58.950

uh young people, students at universities and colleges who, who helped to change the moral climate. But I, I held on to non violence in very large measure. I think uh for strategic reasons, if we went the way of the armed struggle, that we probably would not

00:14:58.960 - 00:15:23.130

stand too much of a chance against the government that was armed to the teeth. I did get to the point of saying I am not a pacifist. Uh because I mean, I would say I couldn't uh want to sit by, say Hitler was throwing Children into

00:15:23.140 - 00:16:00.880

gas chambers. Um but that I was a peace lover and uh a peace advocate that I, I recognized that there might come a time when you would have to say that uh nonviolent means, uh we no longer viable. We have been deluding ourselves too often. We

00:16:00.890 - 00:16:28.059

have, we have thought that there were nice white people that there were nice newspapers, newspapers that cared about our struggle for our struggle. Why our struggle is going to succeed is not just because of numbers, our struggle is going to succeed because it is a just

00:16:28.070 - 00:16:56.289

struggle, the sanctions in terms of South Africa and surprisingly, the sporting sanctions. That was a real occasion. When sanctions worked. Yes, I mean, the, the, the sports boycott was I think particularly effective psychologically because even as now, I mean, South Africans are sports mad, especially cricket

00:16:56.299 - 00:17:23.750

and rugby and for them to be prevented from playing in the national sport, I mean, rugby not to be able to play against the all blacks against Australia that I think um cause them, I mean it hit them in the solar by the 19 eighties, South

00:17:23.760 - 00:17:55.829

Africa was cursed with violence in the streets and increasing isolation abroad. The white government of President Fw de Klerk started secret negotiations with the A NC which would eventually lead to Nelson Mandela's release and then the first democratic elections in the country's. Hm A fantastic day.

00:17:58.839 - 00:18:17.280

Many years later, I asked the clerk about that time. Had you met him before that or any afterwards? I met him only once before that. The next time he was brought to my office was shortly after my speech of the second of February. When I announced

00:18:17.290 - 00:18:34.489

to him, he would be released on the 11th of February and his immediate reaction was no, it's too soon. And I said, Mr Mandela, why is it too soon? He said, no, no, we need more time to prepare you say Mr Mandela, you've been in jail

00:18:34.500 - 00:18:54.280

long enough, you will be released on the 11th. We will later negotiate about many other things, but this is not negotiable. Now, let's negotiate about what time of the day and from which place are you going to be released? He laughed and he accepted, uh, sometimes,

00:18:54.489 - 00:19:20.439

uh, Mr De Klerk does not get the credit that he deserves. I certainly pay a tribute to Mr De Klerk, but I have to say that someone up there must really have been on our side or, or betting for us. Uh, because, I mean, when, when

00:19:20.449 - 00:19:42.979

things were getting rough, I mean, after, after his release and, and, and the build up to our first democratic election, it was one of the roughest, one of the bloodiest periods in, in, in our history. It did seem as if there was a third force that

00:19:42.989 - 00:20:13.030

sought to undermine the process of renegotiation. And yes, II, I mean, when you think of the assassination of, uh, Chris, honey, it really was touch and go if we had had anyone but someone on the statue of Mandela, it would have been very, very difficult to

00:20:13.040 - 00:20:41.979

have persuaded people in his ranks to lay down their arms and getting people to say it's better to talk rather than war, war. He had a stature to persuade very many in his own party who thought, uh, this is the wrong time, uh, to want to

00:20:41.989 - 00:21:02.510

lay down arms because, uh, these, these guys are not really trustworthy and on the very day that Nelson Mandela was released, he came. In fact, although you didn't at that point know each other very well, but he came to your home. Well, he, he stayed overnight

00:21:02.520 - 00:21:26.699

at Bishop's Court. Uh and I didn't see a great deal of him because uh his party uh colleagues uh they were having their meetings and the only time that I kept seeing was that I, I was getting calls. Uh This is the White House. Uh This

00:21:26.709 - 00:21:48.630

is a state house here. This is, I mean, various political leaders in, in the world were calling in to congratulate him to wish him well. Yes, I mean, it was, it was, it was quite amazing. Yeah, but I mean, his, his contribution is immeasurable. Um his

00:21:48.640 - 00:22:11.619

stature. Uh I mean, for someone who was the the commander in chief of the military wing of the A NC to be at the forefront of uh persuading people that it would be better for us to, to negotiate. It is better for us to lay down

00:22:11.630 - 00:22:35.199

our arms and, and then to try to leave that out. I mean, you know, he invited to his inauguration. He invited his wife, one of the first people to come and have lunch with him in, in, in State House was uh the man who had been

00:22:35.209 - 00:23:03.359

the prosecutor. Uh the man who had sent him to Robben Island who in fact had asked for the death penalty. Uh That was the first guy he invited to come and have lunch with him uh when he became president and he also invited the widows of

00:23:03.369 - 00:23:45.839

political leaders, most of whom were afrikaners and he went to visit the widow of doctor, oh, incredible guy. He's probably the second most famous South African after Nelson Mandela. And when his country obtained its first fully democratically elected government under Mandela Desmond

00:23:45.849 - 00:24:06.859

Tutu was given the crucial healing task of chairing the country's Truth and Reconciliation Commission designed to deal with the horrors and abuses on both sides of the apartheid era. A stick was put inside your knees and you had to stretch your knees during that period. You

00:24:06.869 - 00:24:42.569

were suffocated. If you do not deal with a dark past, such as ours effectively look the beast in the eye, that beast is not going to lie down quietly. It's going as sure as anything to come back and haunt you horrendously. Those pictures of you and

00:24:42.579 - 00:25:12.160

other members of the commission at times just had to close your eyes. What you heard was was so destructive. Well, Mr Margas was describing a form of torture that they gave him. Well, that happened on the, on the very first day of uh the, the hearings

00:25:12.540 - 00:25:34.780

and, and he was the last uh witness uh to testify. And I think, I mean, I don't know why he cried. I whether it was uh the memory of what they had done to him or the fact that uh because of his disability, his mouth could

00:25:34.790 - 00:25:59.050

not uh articulate all that he wanted to say. Uh And so he broke down, uh, when he did, I mean, it, it, it just triggered me off and I broke down. It was a very great privilege because, I mean, the people were amazing and it was

00:25:59.060 - 00:26:30.819

of all races, the people who came to testify were almost uniformly, um, amazingly magnanimous. Really? I mean, you, yes, I mean, the people who had, who had suffered, uh, uh, some of them, some ghastly atrocities. They, they were just amazing. Uh We, we were fortunate to

00:26:30.829 - 00:27:01.660

be, to be set where we were as facilitators. The real stars were, were the people who came to testify. I mean, those who were testifying as victims who, when the, on those occasions where some of them uh met up with the perpetrators almost universally, they, they,

00:27:01.670 - 00:27:25.930

they had a magnanimity. That was just incredible. I mean, the, the, the readiness to, to, to forgive the perpetrators was uh, yeah, I mean, just something out of us were when you heard someone talking about what they evil they had done. Did you find it difficult

00:27:25.939 - 00:27:47.520

not to hate those people? No, I, I think, I mean, that one of the things we kept having to remember uh was that, you know that saying there but for the grace of God go, I, you see, you couldn't, you, you couldn't be, uh you didn't

00:27:47.530 - 00:28:11.020

know if you had been exposed to the same circumstances, the pressures and the influences that that particular person had had. Do you know whether you would not have turned out as they turned out many of them. Uh I, I mean, I think not all of them,

00:28:11.030 - 00:28:38.699

but I think most of them were actually quite genuine when they turned and, and ask for forgiveness from the victims. Uh They were not required to do that. So it, it was an incredible privilege to have been part of this, to be wounded, healers, wounded healers,

00:28:38.709 - 00:29:06.859

all of us. And we realizing it now more and more during this period uh uh that we are a wounded people. It's nearly two decades since apartheid gave way to democracy in South Africa. But Desmond Tutu is now seriously worried about the path his country seems

00:29:06.869 - 00:29:28.329

to be taking. He's become more outspoken in his criticism of the government and the Rainbow nation of which he was once so proud. Are you sort of disappointed with how things have gone since 1994? I have to be realistic obviously, and things could have been a

00:29:28.339 - 00:29:56.430

great deal worse, but I, I still have this deep sense that they could have been a great deal better. I think we've let the people down in, in, in so far as you have an elite that has done very, very well for themselves who have got

00:29:56.439 - 00:30:25.079

quite, quite rich and the power of the people are still where they were or sometimes worse off, you know, um sometimes worse off. Yeah, I mean, we still have Children learning under trees. Now, now that is quite unconscionable really. To have people going to bed hungry.

00:30:25.089 - 00:30:53.839

I mean, our economy is not badly prosperous but then it is also not, uh, one of the worst, but we seem to have lost the plot to some extent. I mean, in the educational sphere, uh, we are about as bad as the old dispensation could have

00:30:53.849 - 00:31:29.160

been, uh, in most recently, we had one of our nine provinces uh where Children were devoid of uh uh textbooks and the textbooks were ordered, they were found dumped somewhere. People were paid uh for carrying out that particular um assignment but paid for nothing. Kia township

00:31:29.170 - 00:31:53.380

on the outskirts of Cape Town was an apartheid era squat account that still survives. Now in the New Democracy, Desmond Tutu is the patron of Kia's Fila Nutrition Center which looks after mothers and Children in desperate need and suffering from malnutrition. So where are we now?

00:31:53.729 - 00:32:19.025

This, this is their workshop. This is part of the liberation of our people. You know, because as you know, I mean, you've seen examples already here. Poverty is something that actually almost destroys people. It can also as it is doing just now uh be something that

00:32:19.035 - 00:32:48.760

uh is explosive. A the coming of political freedom does not necessarily mean that you are going to have economic freedom. But you know, it's 18 years since our first democratic election, you would have hoped that by now, most of the ugly features of poverty would have

00:32:48.770 - 00:33:13.859

been got rid of. We also have got to say that one of the wonderful things is, yes. In the midst of this particular wilderness, you can have an oasis such as this one in 2007 with a Nobel Prize under his belt for his contribution to peace

00:33:13.869 - 00:33:40.959

in his own land. Desmond Tutu embarked on a new career as a world statesman can become a fiercely independent and robust force. What the dream child of businessman Richard Branson and musician, Peter Gabriel and under the auspices of Nelson Mandela, the elders were formed with the

00:33:40.969 - 00:34:01.290

idea that former world leaders could bring their stature and their wisdom to bear in the cause of world peace. One of the reasons why they involved Nelson Mandela was that there are very few people who would say nay to him. If he invites you, you'd have

00:34:01.300 - 00:34:23.889

to have a very, very good reason not to accede to his request. When the elders recently held a meeting in London, I took the opportunity to continue my conversation with Desmond who brought along another elder president, Jimmy Carter, Sir Richard Branson invited us to come down

00:34:23.899 - 00:34:39.419

to his island in the Caribbean and uh archbishop and I went along with about 34 40 other people to talk about the early plans or possibilities for the elders. We disagreed with a lot of it over a period of time, Richard and uh Peter uh changed

00:34:39.429 - 00:34:53.398

their plans and then they were formed fairly uh certainly about six or seven years ago. And then they went to Nelson Mandela who really has been the godfather of the elders. And so he, he introduced us and we, and we began our work together five years

00:34:53.408 - 00:35:19.189

ago. What's the most important quality an elder should have? We should be old. No. Uh I, I think, I mean, the one of the most important is independence that you, you should be able to speak out fearlessly and, and not be able to succumb to pressure.

00:35:19.939 - 00:35:43.020

Uh And, and that is one of the reasons why it has to be people who are no longer in, in, in, in, in office uh and are not as aspiring uh to hold office and uh a modicum of wisdom uh uh or pretend, I mean that

00:35:43.030 - 00:36:08.870

no, no, no, no pretend because it, it is people who, who have a remarkable, a remarkable range of experience. And I think that you, you also have uh a reputation for integrity. Over the past five years, the elders have covered a lot of ground from East

00:36:08.879 - 00:36:27.449

Jerusalem. I don't think anyone would ever claim that the demolition of someone's home or the confiscation of a home in which the family has lived for many generations, is fair or justice or peaceful. So we congratulate you on this peace and hope you will be successful

00:36:27.580 - 00:37:00.389

to the Korean Peninsula, the Ivory Coast. We hope that we can do something that will make a significant difference, that will bring peace to this land and to Zimbabwe. Well, not quite, there've been barred entry by Robert Mugabe's regime. What are the places where, where you

00:37:00.399 - 00:37:16.199

can see now that you've made a difference? Well, we basically fill vacuums in the world. We think that if the United Nations Security Council is adequately addressing an issue of the United States or Great Britain of the European community is dealing with an issue uh effectively,

00:37:16.209 - 00:37:31.820

we don't get involved. But whether China is a need that, that can be filled by us uniquely. That's when we decide to take on an issue, for instance, uh going to North Korea is not a common thing to do. And when we go to the Middle

00:37:31.830 - 00:37:43.610

East, we meet with the Israelis, we meet with the Jordanians, we meet with Fatah, we meet with Hamas leaders, we go to Gaza, we go to Syria and we go to Egypt and then we put together our recommendations and make them public. So these are the

00:37:43.620 - 00:38:10.219

kind of things that the elders do. We would, we would hope, I mean that our interventions would be uh strategic interventions. Uh I mean, we don't have limitless resources uh but we want to be able to have used them um strategically where they, they make as

00:38:10.229 - 00:38:36.290

were the most uh impact we have at, at some point in, in our evolution uh said we, we need to be extremely careful that we don't think we have to comment on, on every single uh situation. Uh Don't let us want to spread ourselves too thin.

00:38:36.780 - 00:39:06.439

Um We are aware of that. Uh My own uh concern has been that I thought we were uh probably punching below our weight. Um Because I think, I mean, if you've got a group that has a Jimmy Carter, a Kofi Annan, Mary Robinson. Uh and, and

00:39:06.449 - 00:39:28.800

they make an utterance, the one would have expected that the world will probably sit up and take notice when the elders visited Jerusalem in 2009. Some of them were horrified by what they witnessed. More than three years later, those opinions have become the consensus in their

00:39:28.810 - 00:39:44.360

group. I would say at the beginning, only three or four of us elders were deeply concerned about the rights of the Palestinians and therefore bringing peace to Israel. But as we discussed it for two or three years, eventually, I would say we reached complete consensus and

00:39:44.370 - 00:40:01.820

unanimity in pointing out the fact that they ought to be a cessation of Israeli confiscation of uh of Palestinian territory and a resumption of the 1967 borders with small modifications as a basis for peace. And this is the official position of the United Nations and the

00:40:01.830 - 00:40:18.060

United States and, and Europe and the European Union, but they don't pursue it. So we thought that we would get involved and try to reify the concept of peace and human rights in, in uh in the holy land. And why is it, in fact that Israel

00:40:18.070 - 00:40:37.050

seems to have recently escaped a lot of criticism, not because they've done any reform, but because people have not spoken up well, it's because the United States is involved in a political campaign year. And uh the supporters of Israel, some of the supporters in Israel are

00:40:37.060 - 00:40:54.610

very critical of any politician who criticizes anything that the government of Israel does. And so the United States has backed away from their active involvement. And as you know, in the last 50 years, the United States has been the primary or mediator or conciliator in between

00:40:54.620 - 00:41:10.620

the Israelis and their adversaries, the Palestinians and others. And now they are, the United States is not playing any active role. So that's one reason the United the elders decided since there is a complete vacuum there with the European leaders not inclined to become involved that

00:41:10.629 - 00:41:27.020

we would become involved and at least keep the issue of peace and human rights alive as it relates to the holy land. But is there any way you that the elders can do something about a vital issue like the settlements, for instance, having spoken out in

00:41:27.030 - 00:41:45.159

what I believe is, is the case. Uh I will put on my tin hat and, and get into the, into the trenches. Uh But I'm not going to be stopped by people who claim I mean, that I am something that I know I'm not. And at

00:41:45.169 - 00:42:06.060

the same time, I mean, very much so, you said that what you saw in Israel, something that was quite akin to the situation in South Africa before freedom came to the black people of South Africa. Well, in many instances worse, it's actually quite distressing for one

00:42:06.070 - 00:42:32.770

thing that we didn't have a war, a war that encroached so very seriously on, on the territory of other people. I mean, many of them told us that I used to get to my farm in 10, 20 minutes. Now it's 23 hours and having homes demolished,

00:42:32.780 - 00:43:00.120

the Israeli politicians are aware that they can get away with almost anything because the West is guilty. It feels guilty, it feels guilty about what they didn't do, uh, in when the holocaust happened and, and they, they, they've given a cut of cut blanche. Now, if

00:43:00.129 - 00:43:21.169

they are penitent, they ought to be the ones who pay the price of that penitence. But the price is being paid by the Palestinians. Part of my own concern for what is happening there is, is in fact not what is happening to the Palestinians, but it

00:43:21.179 - 00:43:49.729

is what the Israelis are doing to themselves. I mean, when you go to those check points and you see these young soldiers behaving abominably badly. They are not aware that when you carry out dehumanizing policies, whether you like it or not quite inexorably, those policies dehumanize

00:43:49.739 - 00:44:04.889

the perpetrator. That was the sort of reaction in part that you had to your visits. It was, well, I've been going there for 30 or more years and when we negotiated the Camp David Accords, we had two parts, one was peace between Israel and Egypt. The

00:44:04.899 - 00:44:20.729

other was Israel's commitment to guarantee human rights for the Palestinians. They have honored the treaty but not the human rights for Palestinians. But to answer your question specifically, when we go to East Jerusalem, we visit with families living in the middle of the street who have

00:44:20.739 - 00:44:34.489

been excluded from their own home that they've occupied for 65 years and now have no place to go because Israeli settlers want to move into their homes. We've been to the little village of Berlin in the West Bank where the Israelis were taking over the entire

00:44:34.500 - 00:44:50.129

territory of the farmers, all, all of their productive land for, for raising sheep and goats or for growing crops. And we've been to the families that have just had their, their homes completely destroyed by Israeli bulldozers because they refuse to move. So when we go and

00:44:50.139 - 00:45:09.939

see these things happen, it, it uh makes believers out of people who want to see human rights and justice prevail. Absolutely. Well, listening now to President Carter and Desmond Tutu's outrage at what they had seen in Israel and the occupied territories. I'm struck by something that

00:45:09.949 - 00:45:33.100

Desmond said to me in South Africa about his faith and his belief in God. What is it that inspires me? Uh Well, it is the knowledge that you there is, there is a God who actually does care. And strangely, I mean, this, this God who is

00:45:33.110 - 00:46:06.310

omnipotent is also impotent. This court has extraordinarily said, look, I have created you and I have created you to be a person, a person is someone who is a moral agent who can choose uh between good and bad. God can't intervene to stop us from making

00:46:06.320 - 00:46:30.860

the bad choices. And so how does evil end evil is going to end when there are those amongst Gods creatures who want to collaborate with God and the forces of God to end the evil? And actually, I mean, the, the God that I've come to believe

00:46:30.870 - 00:46:57.070

in is, is a God who invests more in the saving of sinners than in the celebration of the court. You know, very fantastic. Fantastic. Really? Absolutely. We thank you so much for this uh Desmond. And I think the best thing to end with is a quote

00:46:57.080 - 00:47:19.510

from Nelson Mandela who said this about you. If Desmond gets to heaven and God denies him entry, then none of the rest of us will get in. And one thing He is also certain when the time comes, God will hear this irrepressible man long before he

00:47:19.520 - 00:47:26.219

sees him. Well, thank you. Thank you.